Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US

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Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US

This thread has been locked for further replies. You can start a new thread to share your ideas or ask questions.
Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-07-12 16:55:27
Model: EAP225  
Hardware Version: V3
Firmware Version:

When can we expect access to using DFS channels for the US version of EAP225-V3?

 

Enabling these DFS channels could be very useful to me.

 

Thanks!

 

Todd

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#1
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19 Reply
Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-07-14 06:01:14

The latest firmware (EU version) supports the DFS channel, but the US version doesn't support DFS channel. So I guess it should be related to the law.

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#2
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Re:Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-07-14 13:43:49

The US regulations for DFS channels are very similar to the EU regs.  It should be a trivial matter to meet them and also a simple matter to enable them.  They would be very useful to have. 

 

I have some neighbors that are using them now with their hardware from other manufacturers and I can see them via a WiFi analyser application.

 

TP Link.  I very much like your line of hardware and recommend it to friends, neighbors and coworkers but I cannot further do this when other providers are offering these channels in the US market.  I know that is still a not a lot of sales in the scheme of things.  Your business WiFi platform is great.  I will be happy to start recommending again once you enable these channels.  

 

Is a firmware in the works to give us access to them?

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#3
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Re:Re:Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-07-15 09:17:34

Hi @T0ddly ,

 

EAP225-Outdoor (US) doesn't support DFS channel now, but we will consider your suggestions and consult it with our colleagues.

 

Thank you for your feedback.

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#4
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Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-12-13 02:35:12
US supports all DFS channels and FCC also allocated and open -B domain channels which are 120, 124, 128. It's been offered by many vendors since decade :)
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#5
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Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-12-13 03:24:19

@wifiprosz 

Yes you are right. 

Actually, in the US region, we can use band1, band2 and band3 and ban4. But band2 and band3 are DFS channels. When client devices work in DFS channels, they may meet disconnection issue. Considering this factor, we do not add DFS cahnnels on the firmware. Band1 and band4 should be enough for customers to use.

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#6
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Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-12-16 22:49:04

@forrest 

Thanks for responding.

I am confused what is band 4? I thought UNIII2 and UNII2-Extended are the DFS channels. See below for the list. Disconnects only happens when AP changes the channel due to detecting radar and this would happen in a minute so won't be very noticeable to clients. Rest I understand if you are near or within a mile radius of the airport or station then this is something you should worry about otherwise not every other person would fire up a radar at their home for amusement :) Add 802.11h Channel Announcement for DFS. It should be a customer option to enable or not to enable DFS channels not the vendor as TPLINK should offer minimum features if not all.

 

802.11 stations, before transmitting in a DFS channel, must validate (by first listening for 60 seconds) that there is no radar activity on it.  And, if an 802.11 radio should detect radar while using the DFS channel, it must vacate that channel quickly.  Thus, if a radio should detect radar in its serving channel, then switch to another DFS channel, this will impose (at least) a one-minute outage.

When an access point (AP) uses a DFS channel and a radar signal is detected, the AP will behave as follow: 

  • Stops transmission of data frames on that channel
  • Broadcasts an 802.11h channel-switch announcement.
  • Disassociates clients
  • Selects a different channel from the DCA (Dynamic Channel Assignment) list
    • If the selected channel is not DFS then AP enables beacons and accepts client associations
    • If the AP selects a DFS-required channel, it scans the new channel for radar signals for 60 seconds. If there are no radar signals on the new channel, the AP enables beacons and accepts client associations. If a radar signal is detected, the AP selects a different channel

 

This is not the valid and true reason, that makes all other big and small vendors crazy or have less knowledge then tp-link? Please do not impose what is good and not good for customers as we your reasons don;t make sense and this is someone everyone offers in the industry. 

Stop doing false advertisement about wave 2 ac eap when you only opening up 9 channels, how will you bond 80mhz channel when you have more then 2 APs. I do not see any road block or convincing reason not to open or allow DFS channels on your APs. If tjhis is something you guys can't offer something so bare minimum then provide refunds for false advertising of youir products and branding it as enterprise level or even mid busniness or big home level where more then 2 APs are deployed. Thanks!

 

  • UNII-1
    • 36, 40, 44, 48
  • UNII-2a
    • 52, 56, 60, 64
  • UNII-2c Extended
    • 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 124, 128, 132, 136, 140, 144
  • UNII-3
    • 149, 153, 157, 161, 165
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#7
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Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-12-17 02:33:14

 

wifiprosz wrote

Rest I understand if you are near or within a mile radius of the airport or station then this is something you should worry about otherwise not every other person would fire up a radar at their home for amusement :)

 

Of course not for home amusement. You should be worried about DFS causing RLAN devices to release the channel due to military use of FSS (earth-to-space) satellite services in the 5 GHz band:

 

[...]

 

 

I'm not familiar with the exact types of coexisting 5 GHz services in the U.S., but there are definitely such services as A5.9 and A5.10 of this (European) coexistence report mentions, this might include Fixed Satellite Service (FSS), Broadband Fixed Wireless Access (BFWA), Programme Making and Special Events (PMFE) etc.

 

Radio LAN (RLAN, that's WiFi) is just one of the services sharing the 5 GHz band. So, DFS/TPC in the U-NII-2A and U-NII-2C band occurs not only when weather radars are active.

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#8
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Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-12-18 21:22:47

@R1D2 

Thanks for responding, and sharing details. It sounded like I am in the plane and about ot take off and flight attendant is like please place your devices on airplane mode :)

 

Since you are not familar let me share with you FCC has allowed UNII2 and UNII2-E channels few years back later they also opened up Canadian radar channel 120, 124, and 128 under DFS channels.

 

That's the TP-Link faq where there is no where indicated that in US we will not going to provide or offer DFS channels:

https://www.tp-link.com/us/support/faq/763/

 

This is outside link to validate my claim:

https://wifibond.com/2016/10/26/wlan-operating-channels-and-frequencies/

 

 

See the cahrt below what is were aloowed before and what is now.

 

I know you are just defending and supporting your product but this is a basic feature that everyone offers and without those channels it's not possible to have 80MHz wide channel or 40 MHz when you are deploying 5+. I run a consultansy service with deployments and choosing TP-Link was staright a coset effective solution but this limititation will effect our solution in terms of performance to clients. Plus the coverage is wider when you use UNII3 band and next down is DFS UNII2/E channels due to transmit power allowed unlike UNII1. I have read that on the UK/EURO side these channels are available recently so as a workaround if I change the controller from US to UK or Euro then would I get the options to select those channels and will these US APs able to join/provision with the OC200 controller? 

Unfortunately and sadly, I have been batteling with finding beamforming option for these EAP245 V3 APs and now this channel limitation inclining me towards Ubiquiti solution as they off DFS channenls and other enterprise level features along with Deep Packet Inspection with addon USG device. I purchased 6 APs for testing with OC200 I am thinking to return it as it's still within 30 days and go to Ubiquiti setup/solution which will cost me $300 dollars more for the same setup plus I have to install and offer the small WiFi solution to smalll businesses and large size homes. 

If this is something not in the pipeline to open up channels which are allowed in US by FCC then it's sone and deal breaker for me and others.

 

Thankns for all your support. 

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#9
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Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2019-12-19 00:53:54 - last edited 2019-12-19 01:24:52

 

wifiprosz wrote

Since you are not familar let me share with you FCC has allowed UNII2 and UNII2-E channels few years back later they also opened up Canadian radar channel 120, 124, and 128 under DFS channels.

 

I wrote that I'm not familiar with co-existing services beside Radio LAN for the U.S. I'm pretty well familiar with U.S. channel allocation of the 5 GHz band for RLAN and with European co-existing services such as satellites in geostationary orbits on my part of the globe. There once was (spare) documentation of the U.S. military use of the 5 GHz band on your site of the globe, but it is no longer online. Fact is that there are still co-existing services in the U.S., too, else there would be no requirement for DFS/TPC set forth by the ITU.

 

Your reference chart for WLAN channel allocation is pretty much out of date, by the way.

 

In the U.S. U-NII-1 and U-NII-2A bands can be used indoors and outdoors, while in Europe U-NII-1 and U-NII-2A is allowed indoors only. That's why in Europe EAPs need to be restricted to U-NII-2C channels if used outdoors. Omada Controller has a setting to enforce this restriction with EU devices. U-NII-3 is indeed allowed in Europe, albeit for commercial providers of public services only (BFWA).

 

U-NII-2A is restricted to 200mW EIRP in Europe, not so in the U.S. for EAP225-Outdoor IIRC. Channels 120 to 128 of U-NII-2C are indeed allowed meanwhile in the U.S., forbidden only in Canada, but also useable for comemrcial providers in Europe.

 

The chart you posted is definitely wrong about those channel restrictons, both for the U.S. and Europe.

 

I know you are just defending and supporting your product but this is a basic feature that everyone offers and without those channels it's not possible to have 80MHz wide channel or 40 MHz when you are deploying 5+.

 

First, I'm not defending my product since I'm not from TP-Link at all. I'm just a user of EAPs like you are, albeit I'm involved in software development for public hotspots since the beginning of WiFi technology. Secondly, I'm just wondering about your desire to use DFS channels when you're in the lucky situation to use U-NII-3 w/o DFS for a 80 MHz channel width (mid-frequency 5775 MHz). European users would be happy to be able to use non-DFS U-NII-1 and U-NII-3 channels on outdoor devices with 80 MHz channel width.

 

U.S. users have the luxury of using non-DFS channels in the U-NII-1 and U-NII-3 band even outdoors.

 

Regarding use of 80 MHz channels you will always share the channels with other (foreign) APs, even indoors. If you want to deploy 5+ APs (no matter of which brand), the way it's done by professionals is to deploy an AP in such a distance that they don't interfere too much with each other neighboring AP (or, if this minimum distance to avoid interferences can' be achieved, by decreasing the Tx power appropriately). You could deploy 5+ APs w/o having to set them to different channels w/o any problem.

 

I have read that on the UK/EURO side these channels are available recently so as a workaround if I change the controller from US to UK or Euro then would I get the options to select those channels and will these US APs able to join/provision with the OC200 controller?

 

You probably read in the release notes that TP-Link added DFS channels to EAP225 firmware; those channels had been available (allowed) for RLAN in Europe much longer. Indoor EAPs once offerend UN-II-1 only. With the advent of EAP225-Outdoor they would have been forbidden to be used in European countries, so DFS channels had been added to the firmware for ETSI regions.

 

Region settings are hardcoded in EAP firmwares, thus EAPs have different device configs for the U.S. and EU. You cannot change region settings in the Omada controller, which is an universal software useable everywhere in the world. As a professional you surely know that violating the regulations bear the risk of severe punishments – and with violation I mean abuse of devices approved by the FCC for certain frequency bands only. DFS/TPC rules which have to be implemented in the hard- and firmware might differ in detail between Europe and U.S. variants, so the devices need to have an individual approvement for the appropriate region.

 

I purchased 6 APs for testing with OC200 I am thinking to return it as it's still within 30 days and go to Ubiquiti setup/solution which will cost me $300 dollars more for the same setup plus I have to install and offer the small WiFi solution to smalll businesses and large size homes. 

 

That's the point. If you or your customers pay more money, you can expect more functionality. As for our customers, they are not willing to pay higher prices when a carefully planned installation of a dozen EAP225 can achieve the same goal sharing the available channels even if all are configured to use 80 MHz channel width.

 

You have three 80 MHz channels available in the U.S., we have two 80 MHz channels in Europe for outdoor use and two 80 MHz channels for indoor-only use in the 5 GHz band. Some device only offer one, two or three 80 MHz channels at all. In any case all 80 MHz channels can never be used exclusively with or w/o DFS, even not with UBNT devices which I also use casually for directional links in the 5 GHz and 24 GHz (twenty-four GHz) bands.

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#10
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Re:Enable DFS channels for EAP225-V3 US
2020-04-23 15:42:28 - last edited 2020-04-23 15:45:42

T0ddly wrote

When can we expect access to using DFS channels for the US version of EAP225-V3?

 

Enabling these DFS channels could be very useful to me.

 

Thanks!

 

Todd

Actually, no. The law indicates they are free for use (both commercially and publicly), but need to "back off" when transmission is detected (for a brief period of time). After the transmission is no longer detected, the channel may resume normal function.

 

 

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#11
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