Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor

Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor
Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor
2019-12-09 02:14:26 - last edited 2019-12-09 12:21:14
Hardware Version: V3
Firmware Version: Any

In our network, we have a few EAP 110 V3 Outdoor APs and these APs sometimes hang (we configured it wrongly, or some problem during reconfiguration). Beacuse they are powered by Passive PoE and in hanged state,

 

(a) they will not respond to software reboot requests from controller, and

(b) we cannot power cycle them remotely like we do for Indoor APs (EAP115, EAP225) , by disabling their port PoE for 10seconds and then reenabling it

 

My questions are:

 

(1) Why most AP manufacturers use 24V passive PoE for Outdoor APs instead of 802.3af Active PoE which they use for Indoor APs? 

(2) has anyone tried making EAPs work with 3rd Party Active-to-Passive PoE converters like 

      (a) Ubiquiti Instant 802.3af converters like INS-8023AF-I, INS-8023AF-O, etc (https://www.ui.com/accessories/instant-8023af-adapters/)

      (b) Planet POE-165S (https://planetechusa.com/product/poe-165s-ieee-802-3af-at-to-passive-poe-power-converter-12v-19v-24v/)

      (c) https://www.tycononline.com/8023afatbt-to-24V-Passive-PoE-Converter_p_460.html

      (d) https://www.balticnetworks.com/ignitenet-802-3af-at-to-passive-24v-poe-converter.html

 

can it work reliably with these converters or any limitations ?

 

0
0
#1
Options
1 Accepted Solution
Re:Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor-Solution
2019-12-09 11:44:45 - last edited 2019-12-09 12:44:37

 

APRC-P3-Tel wrote

But we are using Foiled Twisted Cable (FTP Cat6) from the outdoor AP location to the indoor switch with a drain wire in the cable carrying the discharge back to the switch. The switch chassis as well as power supply is grounded. We are hoping that this design is good enough to direct the rare lightning strike on the AP to earth via the switch, but maybe we are not correct and are only increasing the risk of frying the switch equipment AND other connected equipment by this approach. What's youre suggestion ?

 

Grounding is essential for outdoor devices, this also includes cams. A FTP cable (new nomenclature: F/UTP) with a drain wire is sufficient for grounding an EAP-Outdoor if the drain wire is connected to the neutral (ground) line in a power outlet.

 

But note that grounding will not prevent damage if a lightning strike hits the device directly or even the pole. If this happens, the device will be almost certainly destroyed whether it's grounded or not. Grounding just prevents damage from atmospheric discharges, which happen if a lightning strike appears nearby your device (where nearby means some hundreds to thousands meters!).

 

This being said it's definitely a good idea to use Ethernet surge protectors in addition to grounding (the protectors need grounding, too, in order to work). I think in EAP-Outdoor devices there are built-in surge protectors, too, but I didn't (yet) look inside an EAP-Outdoor.

 

Also a couple of days back, we changed all APs  to static IP addresses rather than DHCP, ithe idea being to monitor them using Multiping (like we do with our IP cameras) ...

 

You can assign static IPs by mapping the MAC address to a static IP address in the DHCP server. I did not talk about dynamic IP addresses; I never use dynamic addresses for stationary devices.

 

༺ 0100 1101 0010 10ཏ1 0010 0110 1010 1110 ༻
Recommended Solution
0
0
#6
Options
7 Reply
Re:Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor
2019-12-09 03:06:08 - last edited 2019-12-09 03:15:24

 

APRC-P3-Tel wrote

(1) Why most AP manufacturers use 24V passive PoE for Outdoor APs instead of 802.3af Active PoE which they use for Indoor APs? 

(2) has anyone tried making EAPs work with 3rd Party Active-to-Passive PoE converters like 

      (a) Ubiquiti Instant 802.3af converters like INS-8023AF-I, INS-8023AF-O, etc (https://www.ui.com/accessories/instant-8023af-adapters/)

      (b) Planet POE-165S (https://planetechusa.com/product/poe-165s-ieee-802-3af-at-to-passive-poe-power-converter-12v-19v-24v/)

      (c) https://www.tycononline.com/8023afatbt-to-24V-Passive-PoE-Converter_p_460.html

      (d) https://www.balticnetworks.com/ignitenet-802-3af-at-to-passive-24v-poe-converter.html

 

can it work reliably with these converters or any limitations ?

 

Re: 1) Obviously, for EAP110-Outdoor passive PoE (24 volts) is a cost-effective solution, since it has a 100BASE-T interface anyway.

EAP225-Outdoor supports both, passive PoE (24 volts) and 802.3af/at PoE.

 

Re: 2) Long time ago I suggested to TP-Link to develop an outdoor switch which supports passive PoE, but so far there is none. Thus, I use UBNT EdgePoint-R6 (which is actually a router, but can be used as a VLAN-aware switch, too) to feed my EAP110-Outdoor and EAP225-Outdoor. Works great. I don't like converters, so I have no experience with the products you looked at.

 

Regarding reboots: I never had any such problems with hang-ups. I can reboot EAP110/225-Outdoor through Omada Controller remotely, no matter whether they are feeded by the PoE adapter included in the package or by an EP-R6. Of course, if you change the IP or do something other destructive which breaks the IP connectivity between the EAP and the controller, you need to hard-reset them.

༺ 0100 1101 0010 10ཏ1 0010 0110 1010 1110 ༻
0
0
#2
Options
Re:Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor
2019-12-09 03:36:09

(1) Thanks for pointing out the capabily of EAP-225 Outdoor regarding 802.3af. We need about 15-16 of them in the next 1 year. So its one less integration issue to worry about. Ubiquity converter models INS-8023AF-I and INS-802.3AF-O are actually 10/100 mbps devices, but we can't procure them locally to test from the town's Ubiquti dealers and distributors (they don't have stock).

 

(2) We *also have a 10/100 mbps Passive PoE switch from UTT brand, but its a unmanaged switch (and because its unmanaged we no longer use it).

 

We do have a problem with *physical hardware resetting of APs. The APs are mounted high up on wall/poles (outdoor ones) or on ceilings (indoors). Even racks having injectors /switches are high up. All to prevent vandalization especially since the network supports 400+ IP-CCTV cameras also along with Wifi access.  We need ladders and  installing *contractor to climb up and do this and he commutes to our site from a far away place. The resetting is a few seconds job, but the time and energy spent by the *contractor in commuting, arranging shared ladders, etc (and we in waiting) is impractical and a waste. 

 

So we have always wanted a 100% manageable network, where any hand AP/IP-camera etc we can power cycle and do a hard reboot if the soft-reboot fails for whatever reason. atleast 70-80% time if a device hangs, we can recover it by recycling its power. If we fail to recover devices  both by reboot of software and power cycling, we ofcourse have to physically freset the device to factory preset and then reconfigure it.  Our latest problem with EAP-110 hang (as well as with EAP-245 indoor) came with the IP addess change scenario (changed from DHCP config to static IP).

 

 

 

R1D2 wrote

 

APRC-P3-Tel wrote

(1) Why most AP manufacturers use 24V passive PoE for Outdoor APs instead of 802.3af Active PoE which they use for Indoor APs? 

(2) has anyone tried making EAPs work with 3rd Party Active-to-Passive PoE converters like 

      (a) Ubiquiti Instant 802.3af converters like INS-8023AF-I, INS-8023AF-O, etc (https://www.ui.com/accessories/instant-8023af-adapters/)

      (b) Planet POE-165S (https://planetechusa.com/product/poe-165s-ieee-802-3af-at-to-passive-poe-power-converter-12v-19v-24v/)

      (c) https://www.tycononline.com/8023afatbt-to-24V-Passive-PoE-Converter_p_460.html

      (d) https://www.balticnetworks.com/ignitenet-802-3af-at-to-passive-24v-poe-converter.html

 

can it work reliably with these converters or any limitations ?

 

Re: 1) Obviously, for EAP110-Outdoor passive PoE (24 volts) is a cost-effective solution, since it has a 100BASE-T interface anyway.

EAP225-Outdoor supports both, passive PoE (24 volts) and 802.3af/at PoE.

 

Re: 2) Long time ago I suggested to TP-Link to develop an outdoor switch which supports passive PoE, but so far there is none. Thus, I use UBNT EdgePoint-R6 (which is actually a router, but can be used as a VLAN-aware switch, too) to feed my EAP110-Outdoor and EAP225-Outdoor. Works great. I don't like converters, so I have no experience with the products you looked at.

 

Regarding reboots: I never had any such problems with hang-ups. I can reboot EAP110/225-Outdoor through Omada Controller remotely, no matter whether they are feeded by the PoE adapter included in the package or by an EP-R6. Of course, if you change the IP or do something other destructive, you need to hard-reset them.

@R1D2 

0
0
#3
Options
Re:Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor
2019-12-09 10:19:17 - last edited 2019-12-09 18:51:09

(1) The reason I use the EP-R6 is because it has an additional SFP port allowing galvanic isolation of an outdoor installation by using fiber cable. With an appropriate power supply the EP-R6 can feed 5 EAPs with passive PoE (the included power adapter supports only two).

Note that other models of this device have different PoE characteristics.

 

Always make sure to ground an outdoor EAP properly (applies to any outdoor device), else athmospheric discharge during lightning storms could destroy the electronics. Perosnally, I would not connect any outdoor device to an indoor switch w/o proper galvanic isolation.

 

(2) [hardware reset] PoE adapters of early EAP110-Outdoor V1 hardware didn't have a reset button, V3 might have one. Newer PoE adapters coming with EAP225-Outdoor do have a reset button, but the ones I tested didn't let me hard-reset the EAP. I don't know whether it's a bug or whether it's intentional by design (the adapters are the same as for Pharos devices, where the reset button on the PoE adapter works).

 

Maybe @forrest from TP-Link can comment on this reset issue, please? Is it intentional/by design that the PoE adapter's reset button doesn't work with outdoor EAPs?

 

But if your PoE gear is in racks on the pole, too, this reset method isn't of much use at least for your outdoor EAPs.

 

In  my opinion, there are only two critical settings which can break connectivity between an EAP and the controller, these are: a) changing the management VLAN of the EAP and b) changing the EAP's IP address.

 

We use static IP mappings in the DHCP server with our EAPs since we need a layer-3 link to our servers running Omada Controller, so we need to use DHCP option 138 anyway in case the customers add more EAP on their behalf. I had a wrong IP setup only once out of ~120 EAPs in the field and this could be easily fixed remotely by changing the DHCP assignment on the router at customer's site. So far, we had no need to have someone climb up to the EAPs on ceilings or antenna poles at all.

 

70-80% probability for mis-configuration seems a very high rate to me which IMO could be avoided by setting up EAPs in the lab before final deployment and by using static IP mappings in the DHCP server. 

༺ 0100 1101 0010 10ཏ1 0010 0110 1010 1110 ༻
0
0
#4
Options
Re:Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor
2019-12-09 11:22:38

@R1D2  The below assertion from you is also another important point for discussion

 

"Always make sure to ground an outdoor EAP properly (applies to any outdoor device), else athmospheric discharge during lightning storms could destroy the electronics. Perosnally, I would not connect any outdoor device to an indoor switch w/o proper galvanic isolation."

 

Our existing system design is not very strict in following this guideline. The main  reason for this deviation,  is that we are not located in a particularly lightning strike prone area, Its very rare.  Plus the APs are on the Ground Floor Ceiling height wall (3m above ground) of a wall of a 12 storey building. And the building itself has conductors on rooftop to catch lightning strikes. The APs therefore were not earthed. neither are our outdoor CCTV cameras (which have survived for 3+ years without grounding). Our Dlink switches also do not support ethernet surge protection of any sort (per the product datasheet/specs).

 

But we are using Foiled Twisted Cable (FTP Cat6) from the outdoor AP location to the indoor switch with a drain wire in the cable carrying the discharge back to the switch. The switch chassis as well as power supply is grounded. We are hoping that this design is good enough to direct the rare lightning strike on the AP to earth via the switch, but maybe we are not correct and are only increasing the risk of frying the switch equipment AND other connected equipment by this approach. What's youre suggestion ? Also are inline ethernet surge protectors like the ones made by ubiquiti (https://www.ui.com/accessories/ethernet-surge-protector/) good enough ? Grounding an outdor AP is going to be rather painful as we need to either develop the earth setup at AP site or connect them to the common apartment grounding busbar which is defintely not near the AP sites.

 

 

Also a couple of days back, we changed all APs  to static IP addresses rather than DHCP, ithe idea being to monitor them using Multiping (like we do with our IP cameras) and also possibly notionally preventing the APs into getting into a disconnected state where they can neither be re-adopted by controller or logged in as standalone device and just sit there in hanged state till factory resetted. And now we are also going to configure APs in lab before installing them, and not the other way round (which *unfortunately has been our current practice). 

0
0
#5
Options
Re:Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor-Solution
2019-12-09 11:44:45 - last edited 2019-12-09 12:44:37

 

APRC-P3-Tel wrote

But we are using Foiled Twisted Cable (FTP Cat6) from the outdoor AP location to the indoor switch with a drain wire in the cable carrying the discharge back to the switch. The switch chassis as well as power supply is grounded. We are hoping that this design is good enough to direct the rare lightning strike on the AP to earth via the switch, but maybe we are not correct and are only increasing the risk of frying the switch equipment AND other connected equipment by this approach. What's youre suggestion ?

 

Grounding is essential for outdoor devices, this also includes cams. A FTP cable (new nomenclature: F/UTP) with a drain wire is sufficient for grounding an EAP-Outdoor if the drain wire is connected to the neutral (ground) line in a power outlet.

 

But note that grounding will not prevent damage if a lightning strike hits the device directly or even the pole. If this happens, the device will be almost certainly destroyed whether it's grounded or not. Grounding just prevents damage from atmospheric discharges, which happen if a lightning strike appears nearby your device (where nearby means some hundreds to thousands meters!).

 

This being said it's definitely a good idea to use Ethernet surge protectors in addition to grounding (the protectors need grounding, too, in order to work). I think in EAP-Outdoor devices there are built-in surge protectors, too, but I didn't (yet) look inside an EAP-Outdoor.

 

Also a couple of days back, we changed all APs  to static IP addresses rather than DHCP, ithe idea being to monitor them using Multiping (like we do with our IP cameras) ...

 

You can assign static IPs by mapping the MAC address to a static IP address in the DHCP server. I did not talk about dynamic IP addresses; I never use dynamic addresses for stationary devices.

 

༺ 0100 1101 0010 10ཏ1 0010 0110 1010 1110 ༻
Recommended Solution
0
0
#6
Options
Re:Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor
2019-12-10 00:59:47

@APRC-P3-Tel  @R1D2 ,

 

For the reset button on the PoE adapter, it is a remote reset. By using this button, we can reset the device. 

Now only EAP110-Outdoor V3.0 supports remote reset feature. For the EAP225-Outdoor, it doesn't support remote reset and we have added this information on the installation guide. 

Actually, we don't recommend you to use the third party passive poe to power for the EAP devices because we don't have a stability test in our lab, so we cannot make sure the result. 

2
2
#7
Options
Re:Any 802.3af active PoE to 24V Passive PoE Connverters for EAP 110 Outdoor V1/V3 and EAP225 Outdoor
2019-12-10 01:14:19

Dear @forrest, thanks for clarification! Much appreciated.

༺ 0100 1101 0010 10ཏ1 0010 0110 1010 1110 ༻
0
0
#8
Options