Which product is right for hotel ?

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Which product is right for hotel ?

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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-09-29 23:09:49

@mobb, according to the manual you can assign the port(s) of the EAP-Wall models to a (one!) VLAN, yes.

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#85
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-02 15:20:03

@R1D2 

Hi there,

About Cat 6 UTP

Just came from meeting with 2 different IT companies that do consulting and do design of networking. Both of them have 10+ years of experience and built some networks for hotels (3 & 4 star)

In my surprise they both agreed, that we need to use CAT 6 UTP cable, since we do not have any big interference here.
In other words, that said STP and FTP should be used in such places like Factory. The only big electrical thing that we have in our building is electrical shield (100kv) in each floor.


We showed them project plan, but 2nd company had different opinion about our topology.

He's recommending to use Cat 6 UTP and patch panel for Switches. And also said, no need for having EAP wall in each room, instead we could use 2-3 in our hallway in each floor, that should cover all rooms. Also, we can just have one cable from switch to VoIP Phone and cable from VoIP phone to Smart TV. I believe he was referring to something like expensive VoIP Phone that have 2 Ethernet ports, one for power VoIP Phone 2nd for internet to Smart TV.

But I have a very high doubt about his advise. 

Isn't more convenient to have EAP wall in each room with 3 ports, so one goes to power VoIP Phone, 2nd goes for Internet Smart TV, 3rd will be free, if guest want to use Ethernet cable, instead of Wi-FI ?

He's planning : 

Cable from Switch to AP (hallway)
Cable from Switch to VoIP Phone (has 2 Ethernet ports)
Cable from VoIP Phone to Smart TV

My planning :

Cable from Switch to AP wall (room)
Cable from AP wall to VoIP Phone
Cable from AP wall to Smart TV


The reason, why both companies advise to avoid FTP, is that everything needs to be grounded, like everything. And it will be more expensive and have to manage (cable not as flexible as UTP)



Regarding IP cameras and NVR.

I don't have our 1st conversation with IP camera expert, but I have our 2nd. (please, see picture below)




This is chat with company Lorex Technology.

Maybe I miss something here, and you can find something, that I cannot see or understand. 


About streaming:

If I understand it correctly,

We have Cat 6 with 10Gb/s speed (within 100meters / 328 foot) and each room has max speed of 100mb/s in local network (EAP-225 Wall).

Let's say 1 devices streaming FULL HD takes 15Mb/s x 70 rooms = 1,050Gb/s total in very very worst scenario.  
Let's say we have this Switch in each floor TL-SG3428MP it has Switching Capacity of 56Gb/s.
Does it mean, that Switch can handle 56Gb/s transfer data at one time ?

If we have 6 Switches in each floor that would be 175Mb/s per Switch, 
Is that correct ?

We did not have a chance to talk much about streaming yet, but if streaming not possible or hard to implement, maybe we can have it in download mode ?
In other words, instead of Streaming, they could just download any movie that's available. 
If 1 FULL HD movies about 1.5GB size, that should be around 2 minutes of download time, from our server to Smart TV (server-switch-AP-smart tv). And we can save lots of bandwidth.

Server with Movies, seems very good idea, that most guests will appreciate. Instead of going to Internet and finding or slow streaming, they could just watch from Smart TV almost instantly. It might be not very easy to implement, but I believe it's a must have, if we can have it. The less guest use our Internet bandwidth, the better. (we don't have 1Gb/s internet speed yet).


You do not want your hotel guests be able to hack a cam and stream CCTV content to their smart TV, do you? Another user here did recommend to use different physical networks for both use cases.

Shouldn't it be done with Switch VLAN settings, after everything else connected ?
In other words, once everything connected and working, we need to separate IP cameras and AP to different VLAN, so guest don't have access to IP cameras and other stuff. 


No worries, we're still looking for outsource this task. Probably not 2 companies, that we meet today.

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#86
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-02 16:32:44 - last edited 2020-10-02 16:54:41

 

Boriy wrote
1. In other words, that said STP and FTP should be used in such places like Factory. The only big electrical thing that we have in our building is electrical shield (100kv) in each floor.

2. We have Cat 6 with 10Gb/s speed (within 100meters / 328 foot) and each room has max speed of 100mb/s in local network (EAP-225 Wall).

3. Does it mean, that Switch can handle 56Gb/s transfer data at one time ?

4. If we have 6 Switches in each floor that would be 175Mb/s per Switch, 

 

1. I would have asked them whether they have ever heard about system noise and alien crosstalk characteristics of 250 MHz CAT.6 cables and what they would recommend to avoid such crosstalking in a cable duct or in a patch panel. Crosstalk is usually caused by undesired capacitive, inductive, or conductive coupling and is a significant issue in structured cabling and communication systems. Such conductive couplings will be increased by each connector/plug and, btw, by patch panels.

 

When I did start with networking 40 years ago, we had bit rates from 300 bit/s to 9,600 bit/s over RS232C serial lines in local networks and remote networks connected together using acoustic couplers. The error rate over unshielded cable for 9,600 bit/s was around 1 bit failure every few minutes, while with shielded cables it was around 1 bit per 30 minutes IIRC.

 

2. CAT.6 is a legacy cable specification which reduces max. length to 55m when used for 10GBASE-T. We already discussed this point. For 100m lengths you need CAT.6A, which is characterized to 500 MHz and thus has an improved alien crosstalk specification compared to CAT.6.

 

If you prepare for a 10GBASE-T network and use CAT.6 UTP cables, just go ahead. I will not further comment on this.

 

3. Yes. 56 Gbit/s is the required switching capacity for a 28-port switch's internal backplane to serve fully loaded 28 Gigabit ports (2 Gbit/s x 28 = 56 Gbit/s).

 

4. No. The bandwidth to each of the 6 switches is the bandwidth of the link between the access and the core switch. If you use one Gigabit cable the bandwidth to each switch is 1 Gbit/s in send and receive direction (that's 2 Gbit/s total).

 

As for the NVR/camera requirements I have no expertise and can't tell you why their cams must be connected to an Internet router. I have no idea why their NVR requires routing, just ask them (ask why, not whether their NVR needs routing and why it should happen on an Internet router, they should be able to explain). In my opinion, a NVR just needs Internet access for remote access to the cameras, but that does not mean that you have to put the whole load of the CCTV network onto an Internet router when you have the alternative to switch the internal traffic.

 

Usually, a »32-channel NVR« just means that it has 32 direct RJ45 jacks for connecting up to 32 cams directly with the NVR. Of course this reduces load from the CCTV network compared to a single cable connection from the NVR to a switch which serves 32 cams.

 

But when I see topologies like the following, it hits my head on the tabletop (it's the WRT54 router that makes me despair of today's IT experts): https://www.getscw.com/images/32-ADM-Diagram.png

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#87
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-09 13:57:56

@R1D2 

Hi,

2. CAT.6 is a legacy cable specification which reduces max. length to 55m when used for 10GBASE-T. 

My bad sorry. Yes, I can confirm, that lengths of each cable will be less than 55m (from Switch to AP)



Also talked with another company, heres their opinions. Today I talked with our technicians, and yes, our UTP cable will be fully seperated from any other (power) cables. 





Streaming:

I don't have much information about this now (about software, licence.....) but downloading, instead of streaming sounds like a good way to go. Each Full HD (1.5GB) download should take around 3-5 minutes to finish. 


 

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#88
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-09 14:00:53

@Boriy 


About our main floor.








Our reception will have 2 PC and 2 IP Phone (PoE).

Do we need to cable each of them separetely (from Switch to PC, from Switch to VoIP Phone) or there are any better solutions ?
 

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#89
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-09 20:51:01 - last edited 2020-10-09 21:33:26

@Boriy, what do you want to prove with these chat logs? That your experts have little clue of crosstalk, EMI and structured cabling?

 

It's not about power cables.

 

Of course you need to separate power cables from data cables. This is a matter of course!

But this measure alone will not eliminate alien crosstalking on UTP cables (and even not EMI!).

 

Alien crosstalk is defined as:

 

Unwanted signal coupling from one balanced twisted-pair component, channel, or permanent link to another.
Since alien crosstalk is only caused by differential (or balanced) signal coupling, alien crosstalk is not adversely impacted by common mode noise (e.g. noise from motors, transformers, or florescent lights) that is present in the environment.

 

Alien crosstalk is specified by current Standards as a power sum parameter for components and cabling to approximate the energy present when all cabling pairs are energized. High power sum alien crosstalk levels can compromise the operation of the 10GBASE-T application by significantly reducing expected signal-to-noise (SNR) margins, thus potentially causing re-transmissions or even auto-negotiation in the network equipment to a lower Ethernet speed.

 

 

 

 

I often experience auto-negotiation to 100 Mbit/s in Gigabit networks when using unshielded CAT.6 flat cables, even very short cables and those are not in a cable duct, not bundled and not crossing power lines. This happens with JetStream switches as well as with routers. The TP-Link forum is full of examples where people experience this type of interference, for example, see this recent thread, post #9 ff.

 

Now, what will you do if you have deployed 20 cables in a duct and 7 of them cause reduction to 100 Mbit/s Fast Ethernet? How does your patch panel help to troubleshoot this issue? Rhetorical question only, a patch panel won't help at all. You will have to replace those 7 cables.

 

Conclusion from a white paper discussing alien crosstalk mitigation techniques:

 

The characterization of alien crosstalk in the installed category 6/class E cabling plant is the main focus of the TIA TSB-155-A and ISO/IEC TR 24750 technical bulletins. Because the alien crosstalk in category 6/class E UTP cabling is extremely dependent upon installation practices (e.g. bundling, the use of tie-wraps, and pathway fill), performance values were developed based on an assumed "typical" worst case installation environment. This analysis led to the conclusion that 10GBASE-T should operate over category 6/class E UTP channel lengths of up to 37 meters and may operate over category 6/class E UTP channel lengths of 37 to 55 meters depending upon the actual alien crosstalk levels present. Since shielded cabling designs significantly reduce alien crosstalk, these length limitations are not applicable to F/UTP (foil-shielded cable) or S/FTP (braid-shielded cable) installations.

 

 

Electromagnetical interference is commonly caused by nearby motors (e.g. in elevators), generators, air conditioners, and even fluorescent lights, printers and RF equipment (surprise, surprise, you have plenty of RF equipment around!).

 

 

And now I present to you the biggest electromagnetic disturbances that none of your experts thought of: the high-energy atmospheric discharges during a thunderstorm that can even induce high voltage in your unshielded outdoor cables and are capable of killing your entire network with a single lightning strike which is 1km away (I have once experienced such a situation and I know them not only by hearsay).

 

IIRC you have outdoor EAPs at the summer/winter terraces, right? Connected to indoor switches, I assume? Using cables without proper grounding and shielding, really?

 

And your experts want to tell you there is no EMI in a hotel, only in factories?

 

I would insist that the cable supplier who makes such claims sign a liability declaration. I guarantee you, he will then withdraw the claim very quickly, especially when you tell him about the outdoor installation.

 

Excuse my rant, but the gibberish of your experts annoys me enormously.

 

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#90
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-10 08:50:02

Here a short report from the category »Theory meets Reality«:

 

Customer moves into a newly built building, 20 rooms, 20 EAPs. Electrician runs cables from patch panel in server room to each of the 20 rooms and mounts EAPs on the ceilings. Cables are away from power lines (theoretically), structured cabling, shielded cables, one more jacket with a standard patch cable to connect the EAP.

 

When adopting the EAPs yesterday the following happened:

 

 

EAP on port 6 negotiates 100 Mbit/s instead of 1 Gbit/s. Something unknown interferes with signals on this cable.

 

 

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#91
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-11 18:06:58 - last edited 2020-10-12 19:12:29

We live in year 2020, i.e.: no, you don´t want to install UTP cables in buildings anymore. Forget about "Liz". We use S/FTP cables in all of our office buildings for well over 10 years. Nowadays those are inexpensive, aswell. You can buy 500 meters of  "S/FTP Cat.7A 1200 MHz  2x(4x2xAWG 22/1)" for less than 400$ nowadays. So, please don´t use deprecated cables for your project.

 

Talking about cable conduits. Power and networking cables share the same conduit.

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#92
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-21 15:35:52 - last edited 2020-10-21 15:43:32

 

mobb wrote

Is VLAN tagging supported on each individual port of the EAP230/EAP235 supported? Including from central Omada SDN management software?

 

@mobb, @Boriy, please see this new post/thread regarding VLANs of additional ports on EAPs. It's about EAP245 and I did answer your question regarding VLANs according to the documentation for EAP-Wall models, but it could be that VLAN mapping for additional ports might not work as expected as I learned now for EAP245 (and well, I bought the EAP for connection of a second device to a specific VLAN).

 

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#93
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Re:Which product is right for hotel ?
2020-10-21 19:44:05

Curious why you aren't keeping this simple and logically seperate. 
 

wifi should be seperate to your local data network 

 

If you are indeed planning on serving licensed content somehow from your smart TVs and local media server you may want to restrict what devices can connect via your ports. Ie just the smart tv will be allowed if someone decides to unplug it and plug in their laptop. 

 

in addition the voip phones will be seperate through a different switch 
 

All cables S/FTP to each room. 
 

installed and managed via patch panels 

 

Wi-fi should be treated seperate and PoE APs situated in the hallways of each floor, spaces roughly every 4 rooms. But a site survey is ideally recommended. Again managed through its own switch 

 

same with the video camera network. Nobody should be able to removed a cable from a camera not intercept it at any point. 
 

cables are easy to work with colour coded too so you know what is what. And I really don't understand why the camera system would go directly into the router. 
 

Having PoE wall devices in each room seems like overkill, a lot of responsibly for 1 PoE device to take on and a nightmare for channel management and interference. 
 

keeping everything seperate and you have secure and reliable redundancy. 
 

I just can't fathom why someone would design a network that could allow anyone to plug in and go through the same routing as security cams or poke around on a server with licensed content on it. 
 

You need to carefully configure your APs and keep your Wi-fi traffic seperate from your local network traffic. It is easier to rate limit too. 
 

Cabling is relatively cheap and have 2 lines into the room, whilst they would be connected to different patch panels for data and voip would give you some redundancy, if you swap over the patch in the event of a cable failure. 
 

make sure the patch panels are in a secure non public area 

 

Wi-fi as it typically spans outwards in strength, like a donut could follow a fairly simple channel format of 

 

36,52,100 40/80 

1,6,11 - 20Mhz 

 

i can't imagine trying to configure 70 points in a grid 

 

ps for high traffic areas as mentioned, you could eventually run with wifi6. For now you could install 3x 245s for example, channel seperated and test, monitor the utilisation graphs and put rules in place to load balance based on number of connections / signal strength.

 

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#94
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